sith power down

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llauf
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Re: sith power down

Post by llauf » Mon May 02, 2005 8:55 pm

So if a 4th class remort naga can beat anybody in one bite then what the hell is the point? Woohoo, 4500+ hp and im dead. GG

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Re: sith power down

Post by Pravus » Tue May 03, 2005 10:16 am

Llauf, it seems you wholly missed the point that Xevira was so eloquently making... We should institute a vulnerability rating on armor, so that armor itself would block sith fangs and prevent your horrible demise, a spell or skill that would slow the effects of the toxin, perhaps a casting or two of cure poison would lessen the strength of the toxin, racial resistances to toxins, and maybe some sort of added resistance like the shell Xevira mentioned. If you think about it, biting someone with stoneskin would probably hurt the biter... Also, how about adding a way to defang a sith after you pk him, and, using brew, make a dose of antivenin for emergencies.

One thing that I would like to see changed is toxins not overwriting each other. Cumulative toxin bites should be a big deal, instead of canceling themselves out. Having a separate effect for each toxin would be nice, and having some sort of affect to combat statistics such as AC, hit roll and damage roll would be nice base effects. Sleep toxin should make an opponent sluggish in battle, possibly reducing hr and AC, and an opponent whos body is coursing with paralyzing toxins seems like they would be easier to hit.

I think having a many pronged way to resist the sith's one true power would be interesting, especially if it involved equipment. Then you'd all go don your sith hunting suits and try and defang me to get my precious super naga-antivenin.... Just watch your backs :twisted:







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Re: sith power down

Post by Nibelung » Tue May 03, 2005 12:13 pm

llauf wrote:So if a 4th class remort naga can beat anybody in one bite then what the hell is the point? Woohoo, 4500+ hp and im dead. GG
So.. you want it where anyone can beat up a 4th class remort? Frankly, the idea that a mort, or even a 3rd class remort can take down a 4th class remort is a joke, yes. They should be a force to be reckoned with, not something you can easily push around. Maybe I exaggerated with the 4th class naga being able to take down a full remorted character in one bite, but I wasn't far off the mark. An arrogant remort 4th can become careless and monotonous in their PKing style, an easy mark for someone that's trained in taking down just about any target, using their weaknesses against them.

To venture from the topic a slight bit: I seem to notice alot of you not wanting any kind of true balancing being done. You only want YOUR damn character to be the unbeatable one. If any other race/class has so much as a slight chance they can beat you, you raise a hissy fit wanting that race/class totally crippled without so much as any constructive input on how to fix the situation in a reasonable manner.

(Pssst for those that didn't catch my humor, I never said that a 4th class remort shouldn't be killable by lesser characters. I just said it would be a joke as they should know better. :D )

Back on topic:
pravus wrote:If you think about it, biting someone with stoneskin would probably hurt the biter...
Stone skin is an excellent example of a protective shell. The idea that a sith (even vampires) can hurt their fangs with this is good. :> Of course, if there's ever a gargoyle or some other stone-skinned race, they would be practically unbitable. Maybe even have the possibility the stone skin could defang the sith/vamp, with a chance the fang would remain lodged in there. If it does, it could leech whatever was being injected into the victim, unless it's removed, kinda like a bee stinger. If the fang just becomes hurt, it could result in the fang becoming loose, which means it can be pulled out. Or, it could result in the fang merely being damaged, reducing the flow of toxins or even biting success.

Another idea for NAGA's... have a toxin spit, where they can spit out raw toxins, not the kind that can work in the blood, but a more poisonous, acidic type spit. Capable of blinding a victim if it stays on them too long, provided the victim can wipe it off. Capable of melting pickable door locks and barred doors (also add an unbarring ability to highwaymen but that's another issue).

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Re: sith power down

Post by Ardghal » Fri May 06, 2005 1:03 am

so would this mean the implementation of a "wiping" skill? *cracks up*

but seriously, Pravus and Xev have the right idea here i think. I have nothing to add at the moment, but one thing. If we have things like stone skin affecting things like resistances to specific skills and spells, then perhaps we should consider making spells like that less common. (which in turn would create the necessity for some mobs to be powered doen probably). Nowadays, things like stone skin, shield, sanc... They're pretty much essential after you hit about level 15. (really before that, but most people don't have access to it before that)

it's just something that i think should be mulled over...
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Re: sith power down

Post by llauf » Fri May 06, 2005 8:49 pm

I dont want to argue but I have added my suggestions. And I dont want my race or any other race to be better than others. Thats the point of this disscusion, one race is clearly over cheesed. I do however like the stone skin idea and defanging of siths for antivenom.

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Re: sith power down

Post by Syn » Sun May 08, 2005 4:10 pm

Hi guys, Ive scanned this topic for a bit. My conclusion is mostly like Ri and Xev said: there's no specific to downgrade the sith toxin ability, but some counter/preventative measure should be added. E.g. a high piercing armor rating, or some antidote which when taken can reverse the effects of the toxin.

Currently whether or not a sith bite works depends on a few things: level of attacker and victim, as well as their dexterity ratings and skills. However piercing armor isn't included in this. Perhaps if we made people with a higher piercing armor rating a little more resistant to the bite of the sith it would help things. I don't think getting immunity from this on any level would be a good thing because it would take away from one of the potentially coolest racial skills (if a little bit underdeveloped so far) in the game.

The second form of check I would propose would be a cure or a resistance for the effects of the toxin. This would also have to be restricted (e.g. not just a cure poison spell) because then people could just set it on a trigger once again knocking down the usefulness of the toxin skill. My idea for this would be an herb that if ingested before the battle would provide a temporary immunity/high resistance to the toxin. Having to take it before combat action might seem unappealing to some people, but I think it's the best way of making sure we don't ruin the sith character as their toxins are in actuality supposed to be real strong. Edit->we could let the herb have other beneficial effects, as well (maybe increased combat dexterity or move regain or something).

What does everyone think of these potential fixes for the problem? Ill leave this topic around for a bit longer to allow everyone to contribute.

8)

S.

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Re: sith power down

Post by llauf » Sun May 08, 2005 4:51 pm

I think those ideas are fair for the most part. One of the things I was actually wondering about though is if the armor class maxes at a potential 1000 or if itll be caculated on the actual AC of say 1400? For something like this id say youd base it off actual AC to encourage a pker to go all out on AC. Course I could be wrong but i was under the impression that ac has a cutoff of 1000 then its all extra.

This brings another thing I was wondering about is if in the future the ac of armor will be changed to say different values for piercin/slash/bashing/exotic to encourage using different weapons besided swords?

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Re: sith power down

Post by RedRaven » Tue May 10, 2005 4:15 am

Good first steps Syn. But if that is the case. Make it so that sanctuary must be cast before battle (ie, cant rewear sanc item mid battle) in order for it to be effective vs kill spell)
Make blackjack usuable after combat starts. Calm only effective cast prebattle. Make sleep usuable after combat starts. etc.
I am sure most of you will realize I am not really serious about want these changes implemented. But if Sith have such an all powerful ability without the restrictions then these other skills/spells need the same thing.

As I have said there is no other skill that can take down a fully healed, fully maxxed remort that doesnt have restrictions of the nature of pre-combat only and/or easily re-instated blocks of them. Or better yet re-allow the scribing of dispel magic, kill scrolls. This was made an unavailable combo (at least by my understanding) for the reason that simply reciting this scroll would make it so that the target had no defense against death, regardless of health, skill, spells or equipment. And even this had the possibility of screwing up the reciting or one or the other of the spells not working. So yes with bite (sleep, whatever it is called)/slit throat there is a chance of failure. Of one or the other skills, but certainly no more than in the case of a dispel/kill scroll.

Actually I just thought of another possibility. Have the bite skill as it injects the toxin, drain a % of the current hp the sith has. Lesser % for the lesser toxins but I would say 50% for the sleep one. This could reflect the drawing on the life force of the Sith to generate and inject the toxin. Such hp/mana/move loss is not unheard of for use of a skill. Vamps (and I believe slayers) lose 50% hp, 100%mana and 50% move when shifting to werewolf (slayer) form. As well as losing any magical affects that have been cast on them, (not just the ones lost from removal of eq). This would make it more difficult for a sith to "spam bite". And even one bite, dropping it to 50% hp, would make it possible for the sith to be possibly beaten down before the toxin takes affect. As is with sith being able to have 3500+ hp(with eq) and Naga over 4K even the heavy damage dealing races and weapons would be hard pressed to do the damage before the toxin takes affect. This would also even out the one way that is not "luck related" to overcome affects and make it a viable combat option.
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Re: sith power down

Post by RedRaven » Tue May 10, 2005 4:24 am

And as far as the Naga being able to take full health to dead in one bite at 4th class, sure, As Long as a vamp can do it as well(not necessarily bite but some other way), and a dwarf and an elf, and titan, etc, etc, one shot kills have always been nerfed in some way shape or form before. And It is my opinion that the sith sleep toxin needs to be also, not just to make it less likely to hit, but some way to make it so that it wont hit, ie sanctuary is to kill, calm is to blackjack etc.
This "block" should be dispellable by dispel magic/cancellation and should be reinstateable either by spell casting during battle, potion, scroll, or even eq.

just as the above is, cept calm cant be in battle, but then you cant blackjack in battle either.

Another + to this solution would be that 1) it does not weaken the bite in anyway. ie the bite will still do the same thing. still have the same chance to hit/effect. And a well timed bite, ie right after dispel. Can still have desired effect. And would still be stronger than dispel in this respect 'cuz of a 0 "casting time" on the bite so less time to "rewear" the block.
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Re: sith power down

Post by Mythology » Tue May 10, 2005 7:00 am

And stone skin to a bite of any kind. I do like that. How would any race that bites be able to do so through skin as strong as stone?

Stone skin should be able to prevent biting.
Sanctuary stops Kill.
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But yet, Nothing stops Behead or Smite either, and Behead is automatic.
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Re: sith power down

Post by llauf » Tue May 10, 2005 10:26 am

You actually have to get someone to hurt or awful for that, as opposed to being in excellent.

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Re: sith power down

Post by RedRaven » Tue May 10, 2005 3:18 pm

Mythology yeah, that is kinda what i have been going for from the start. I am glad someone else finally said it. And yeah, Llauf mentioned, good health is protection from smite behead. So they are limited that way.
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Re: sith power down

Post by Ithilidin » Tue May 10, 2005 5:07 pm

Smite shouldn't have a block to it. People can't just change alignments just to avoid it. Though, I do think behead shouldn't be made to be automatically done. Sure, you have to get them lower than 25% to get it to work, but it works on everyone/thing so it is a fair trade off.
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Re: sith power down

Post by Syn » Wed May 11, 2005 12:46 pm

Heya guys,
Ive made a few changes based on the discussions from this board.

First, I made it so that if your opponent has stone skin on, it reduces the chance of landing a successful bite by half. I did not want to make stone skin give an immunity because I thought it was too much. My original armour class idea was a bit harder to do than it would be worth, and I think stone skin is a fine defense against it for now.

Secondly I am going to implement a second defense against toxins, but this one will come a bit later. I've been playing around with some code for herbs and I've always wanted to add herbalism. Basically there are a variety of herbs, each of which will have to be gathered up from the wilderness or bought from a trader (but for a high price). The herbs, when eaten, will give you short-lasting resistances or perhaps even immunities to stuff. This could be used to protect yourself from Sith toxins as well as other things when you're going to battle, adventuring, etc.

Anyway that's my 2 cents on the topic :> I think that will be sufficient to balance out the sith toxins. I'm going to un-sticky this topic but leave it here in case anyone has any questions, comments, etc.

Also if you guys want to discuss smite/behead/other combat skills Id suggest you start a diff. topic because this one's getting a little cluttered.

8)

Thanks everyone, for your input.

S.

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Re: sith power down

Post by RedRaven » Fri May 13, 2005 2:47 am

Syn, that is great and I suppose it will be a help. But if 50% block is good enough for that to block it out, then how about sanctuary only being 50% block for kill spell, calm only being 50% block for blackjack etc.... it is logical going by what you said of sith bite. (only kidding on this, but it does follow)

How about adding a "casting time" similar to kill spell's to the sleep venom bite. And maybe making stone skin 100% block to that one, but not to others. From my perspective it is not the bite itself that is overpowered, just the one implementation of it.

The "logics" could go that in order to power the fangs with the sleep venom it makes them softer, so that they can not penetrate stone skin.

The "casting time" would prevent a dispel then trigger off the echo of stone skin going to bite. (wouldnt prevent it, but would give human reaction time to do what is needed to rewear stone skin eq, quaff stone skin potion etc)
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